I'm sure immigrants have contributed a lot, but it seems like once a week I read about a serious crime committed by an immigrant. They certainly seem disproportionately more likely to engage in criminal conduct, as the recent riots in the UK show.

Mark

Mark,

There are a few problems with your analysis of the London riots.

First of all, we don't have any native communities in London. About one third of Londoners were born outside of Britain, the number of "2nd generation immigrants" (although, that is a stupid term) is, of course, much higher. To say immigration was the cause of the riots is as implausible as saying that immigration is the cause of alcohol consumption - that is, no single event can happen in London without involving immigrants in some way, because this is a city of immigrants.

Further, of the groups rioting, they all were composed of white, black and asian people. A balanced slice of the demographic. This is no surprise, the entitlement state and its crippling of individual ambition and self worth affects people of all races in the UK. People born into our welfare system are entirely detached from the concept of achieving values. They have been taught to see life as a game of loot, a battle between the looters and the looted.

It is also important to note that London is exceptionally well integrated. Cultural integration is tough, and made tougher by government regulation of immigration, minimum wage laws and the welfare state, but it can work - in London, it often does.

London doesn't have a single ghetto. Our problems are nothing like the American style problems of San Francisco and New York. We do have an element of multiculturalist policy which leads to absurdities like the "Shariah Zones" of the East End, but this is in no way representative or indicative of problems with the immigration system as a whole, it is indicative of problems with multiculturalism in policy.

Londoners, outside of the detached and eery Russel Group, public/private partnership commuter clique, will fiercely defend our status as a worldwide immigration center, life would be unimaginably cold and sterile without it.

Roberto Sarrionandia,
London.

Hi, Mark.

Thank you for reading MoE and taking the time to leave a comment.

Many people believe the myth that immigrants commit more crimes than native-born Americans, but there is no evidence to support that. In fact, I see on the news every single day where multiple native-born Americans in Denver alone have been committing awful crimes, so the fact that you only find one story per week about an illegal immigrant is pretty telling in and of itself. Here are some links about immigrant crime rates
http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/immigrants-and-crime-are-they-connected-century-research-finds-crime-rates-immigrants-are
http://www.motherofexiles.org/2011/10/once-again-immigrants-improperly-blamed.html
http://www.motherofexiles.org/2011/02/tancredo-mexicans-are-dumb-criminals.html

I would also like to point out that MoE does advocate a *moral* government, which is one that respects and protects individual rights, not the government we have now. A moral immigration policy would consist of a criminal background check for those wishing to enter.

No government should tolerate one human being violating the rights of others, period. Neither citizens nor immigrants should violate the rights of others. (Which speaks to your comment about the UK as well. And by the way, most of the rioters I saw in the UK appeared to be Caucasian locals, so I'm unaware of an immigrant aspect to that.)

Robert,

But from what I saw it appears that at least 70% of the rioters were Black. It is kind of hard to argue that this is representative of the population of the UK. Do you deny that Blacks in the UK, the US and other countries commit crime at a higher rate than Whites? Since they obviously do, increased immigration by blacks will increase crime.

Kelley,

Having started to read a little about this, I'm dubious of the claim that immigrants (particularly illegals) don't commit crimes at higher rate.

Here is a brief refutation of that:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1717575,00.html

I even read that there are more Hispanics in prison for murder in US prisons than Whites. Even if legal first generation Hispanics are not violent prone, that doesn't appear to be the case with their descendants.

Obviously it isn't pleasant to talk about racial and ethnic differences.

-Mark

Mark, I will let Roberto comment on the London riots because he experienced them first-hand and has more knowledge than I do. It's my understanding that the Turkish immigrant community (which is the area of London where most of the riots occurred), is a peaceful community and suffered huge business and personal losses during the riots, at the hands of natives (regardless of color of skin.)

As far as the Time article, unless I missed something, it appears to back up what I said and that is that immigrants do not commit crimes at any larger a rate than native-born Americans. American crime is driven by immoral laws, American culture and most importantly, American philosophy.

If you end the immoral drug war and change this nation's immoral immigration laws (thus eliminating the government-created black markets in both), I argue you'd see even less crime from both immigrants and native-born Americans! Give peaceful job-seekers a legal way to enter and you've prevented even more "crimes."

The reason racial and ethnic differences aren't pleasant to talk about is because you completely throw out individuality and invoke collectivist tribalism. You are claiming that because of where a person is born, or because of their skin color, or because of their genetic make-up, or because of their family members, they are more likely to commit a crime. That's an awfully slippery slope to go down. I'm sure there are some black sheep in your family too. Does that mean you should be condemned for their crimes? Of course not! We are individuals and should be judged as such. Furthermore, no one is arguing that the government should let in known rights offenders, or allow them to stay. Anyone who violates individual rights ought to be prosecuted for it.

And finally, the Time article mentions Center for Immigration Studies (CIS). I disregard all data from CIS and its crony cohorts, NumbersUSA and FAIR (all of which were created by the evil, environmentalist, white supremacist, fear-monger, John Tanton.)

If you read the links below and follow the links within those articles, you should be able to see why, but let's just say that I don't buy into eugenics, white supremacy, Nazism or any other form of racism or tribalism. There are enough facts out there from legitimate sources and I refuse to give those criminals the validation they seek.

http://www.motherofexiles.org/2010/12/racist-roots-of-anti-immigration_10.html

http://www.motherofexiles.org/2010/12/immigration-poverty-and-people-with.html

http://www.motherofexiles.org/2010/12/racist-roots-of-anti-immigration_23.html

http://www.motherofexiles.org/2011/04/john-tanton-story-in-nyt.html

Kelly,

I mention the Time article because Camarota says that Hispanics commit crime at a higher rate than Whites. So even if first generation Hispanics don't have higher crime rates, it is still correct to maintain that Hispanic immigration will increase crime. This is very hard to deny given that there are more Hispanics than Whites in US prisons for murder.

I have no idea who John Tanton is, nor do I care. I'm interested in ideas, not people. I find Holocaust deniers repulsive, but they are right that the Nazis didn't make soap out of Jews.

This reminds me of the controversy over The Bell Curve some years ago. As you'll recall, it argued that intelligence is largely genetic and that intelligence correlates with general success in life. Hence there isn't much that education can do to increase one's intelligence. The left was outraged. They attacked the groups who supported the research in the book as racist, etc. Yet The Bell Curve was (and is) good science. Every year important studies come out confirming the book. I have only a little idea what Charles Murray's politics (I think he's vaguely libertarian). I have absolutely no idea what the late Richard Herrnstein's politics were, nor do I care.

Of course most Hispanics are law abiding and no one should paint with a broad brush. However I do think a group's propensity to commit crime should be a factor in a nation's immigration policy.

Let me ask you this: do you think it's a coincidence that the three least violent states (VT, NH & ME) are 98% white and also low immigrant? Would their crime rate go up or down if they had a large influx of Nigerians and Hispanics?

-Mark

Mark, I do NOT agree with your tribalist sentiments. There are lots of people in this world who are not necessarily intelligent who do not commit crimes. Furthermore, intelligence does not determine whether or not a person has rights. I will not publish anymore of your thoughts on racism or respond to them.

I am unsure if you're trolling or sincere. In the hopes that you're sincere, I suggest you read the essay Racism which can be found in The Virtue of Selfishness by Ayn Rand. http://freedomkeys.com/ar-racism.htm After reading that essay four years ago, I found the need to do some introspection and check my premises. I think you need to do the same.

Regarding the London riots. This is a good link: http://winstonsmith33.blogspot.com/2011/08/riots-in-london-are-culmination-of.html

From that very same link:

(1) "This is a rainbow coalition of the underclass, all shades and colours are present on the streets."

(2) "These riots are purely criminal and materialistic in nature and it is the state and its failed social policies that have bred the savage and feral mentality of the perpetrators as well as tieing the hands of the police from taking the kind of swift and robust action to deal with the situation. When wetting criminals and louts is seen as a step too far on behalf of those charged with protecting us is at any wonder we fear another night of chaos?"